First Dynamis

[tarureaper]

Ima kinda busy and I dont have time to address every issue here cuz im busy but I have time for one

You're dodging the point. I CAN warp around in WoW like you can in FFXI, too, ya know. And I will take my pre-40 character and say the same thing above - I can get from any point to any point in WoW before you can get from any point to any point in FFXI. We could even the odds and say no mounts at all, then I'd REALLY be able to get anywhere a lot faster than you could.

But, like I said, you were dodging the point anyway.

Your zones are smaller.

Arrg gtg bye

[Goero]

/em cries

NEITHER OF EM NOTICED THAT I WAS LVL 70!

/em runs to Mal crying

^^

[lizhellsing]

Time can in many cases = difficulty. It, in most peoples cases, takes years to reach endgame in FFXI, and yet on WoW you've reached/almost reached end game on multiple characters


this just depends on the way u played a game with blue mage people have reached 60 when it was just out.. that's fast... also it took me a year on world of warcraft to get to 40 cause ilike to take everything in so that's just the way you play world of warcraft isn't a game u have to play very fast u have a choice

also i'm pretty sure u can get around world of warcraft faster then in ffxi lol that was alot of getting used to when i came back and no the zones ain't smaller maybe even bigger.

and gratz on your 70 Goero=p

[tarureaper]

Gar I wrote this giant thing and then accidentally closed the window. Since im lazy, im just gonna argue the time difficulty thing. Time is a major factor in difficulty. Think about it like this: Whats harder to do? Hold a 20 lbs weight over your head for 5 minutes, or hold a 20 lbs weight over your head for an hour. The latter just because it takes longer and you will run out of energy. For your data entry job the same principle applys, work for 5 hours doing data entry or work for 10 hours. The 10 hours is bound to be harder. Difficulty also depends on the person in a lot of ways as in the game. I have a short attention span when it comes to data entry. I did that job for a week and had to quit because it was too difficult for me to sit and type peoples names into a computer. That relates in the game in the sense that, who can kill a mob faster a lvl 75 Samurai in AF1 with a lvl 60 sword using no buffs or food of any kind, or a samurai with crazy god gear and a crazy sword with no buffs or food. The one with the God gear will probably kill the mob faster.

Now chad tell me this, if you cant use time at all to determine difficulty, how will you do it??

[Goero]

/slaps Taru

Give it a rest man!

We've HAD this arguement MANY times before!

Why are you arguin it again? >.>

[malana]

Awww congrats on 70 Goero ^^

Anyway to lazy to read all of this...so sum itaru up in 3 words or less

[Chadness]

I will give you this, in a few cases difficulty can be affected by time in both games, but I still don't think you're getting the point.

Let's try this. We'll use Taru and Goero for this example. They both start a level 1 job in FFXI. Counting ONLY the time you actually level, Taru takes 1 year to get to level 75, while Goero takes 6 months (if only...haha).

It still takes both of you roughly the same amount of time to go from 1 to 75, its just that Goero spends more of this time in-game partying, and Taru spends more of his time in-game doing other things. Taru has more time played, but Goero got to the level cap faster. Which one had the harder time? Neither of them, they spent close to the same amount of time actually LEVELING.

So, move this to WoW vs. FFXI. I start a new class in WoW at level 1. Say it takes me six months to get to level 60, the cap. Taru starts, for example, Blue Mage in FFXI and it takes him 3 months to get it to 75 because he's a mad leveler. That would make WoW "harder" by Taru's definition.

So, by Taru's definition, time still does not equal difficulty because it depends completely on the player. By that definition difficulty is related to the player and what they feel like doing. I know people in WoW who have been playing a year or more and still don't have a level 60 job, while I see people in FFXI having the new classes already to level 75.

That's what I meant by time does not equal difficulty. You can't relate time to difficulty because it will always be different for different people.

Ok, so now to Taru's question about how you determine difficulty. Difficulty in 99% of stuff in MMORPGs is based on challenge and the encounter. Using Taru's definition, apparently an Onyxia encounter isn't difficult because it only takes you like 30 minutes to do. However, it is immensely difficult, even moreso than Molten Core, which requires the same amount of people, but takes longer to complete. Yet, in the Onyxia encounter, difficulty is determined by the challenge of the single encounter, not by the time it takes to do the encounter.

The only thing I can see time-related that is difficult are events that test a player's skill and endurance in these games - such as wave after wave of mobs, similar to the Rend Blackhand encounter in UBRS in WoW. It takes time and it is mildly difficult to keep mana up through the whole encounter. But, even that encounter isn't 100% determined by the time you have to spend fighting - its determined by player preparedness, player skill and player gear, as well.

Now I'm just repeating myself, so I'll shut up.

[Goero]

; ; and STILL no congrats from Chad ; ;

He hates me ; ;

and dont think i didn;t see that crack about me getting to 75 in 6 months >.>

[Rovec]

Congrats Goero And how comes no one congrats me on 70? Anywho...back onto topic...or wait, the topic was about Dynamis >.> God only knows what happened to this thread lol But...back to the WoW Vs FFXI madness.

I'm kinda lost about what the argument is about. FFXI or WoW being harder? Better end game stuf? *confused about this whole thing* However, since I haven't played WoW much. I'm gonna repeat something I said before.

When I hear Chad (basicly the only Wow player I listen to alot) I hear him talking about PvP, Raids, and instances alot (sp XD). To me, that's three end game things you can do. Now I look at FFXI. Dynamis, HNM and gods, Limbus, uncapped BCNM, and Uncapped Assualts (Woot to expansions!).

And as a side note about assualts for those of you who haven't gotten the chance to try them. They are all very different. No two are alike and they're much different from the classic FFXI battles. For example one involves a group of stone walls that must be shattered using brute melee force (just the first one) then after that you need to slay mobs to find bombs, which in turn you use to blow up the walls and clear the path for the army. Another has you saving an Imperial spy. There are several doors that he could be behind. To break down the doors, you need to pull in mambol Ja Savages and put your back to the door. You need to have a high enough evasion so that certain attacks of theirs will break the doors down.

And there are many many more. ^^; Personally, I think FFXI has more options during end game (and even all thruout the game) then WoW. But, like I said. I'm a WoW n00b >.>

[tarureaper]

admin said:

Congrats Goero And how comes no one congrats me on 70? Anywho...back onto topic...or wait, the topic was about Dynamis >.> God only knows what happened to this thread lol But...back to the WoW Vs FFXI madness.

I'm kinda lost about what the argument is about. FFXI or WoW being harder? Better end game stuf? *confused about this whole thing* However, since I haven't played WoW much. I'm gonna repeat something I said before.

When I hear Chad (basicly the only Wow player I listen to alot) I hear him talking about PvP, Raids, and instances alot (sp XD). To me, that's three end game things you can do. Now I look at FFXI. Dynamis, HNM and gods, Limbus, uncapped BCNM, and Uncapped Assualts (Woot to expansions!).

And as a side note about assualts for those of you who haven't gotten the chance to try them. They are all very different. No two are alike and they're much different from the classic FFXI battles. For example one involves a group of stone walls that must be shattered using brute melee force (just the first one) then after that you need to slay mobs to find bombs, which in turn you use to blow up the walls and clear the path for the army. Another has you saving an Imperial spy. There are several doors that he could be behind. To break down the doors, you need to pull in mambol Ja Savages and put your back to the door. You need to have a high enough evasion so that certain attacks of theirs will break the doors down.

And there are many many more. ^^; Personally, I think FFXI has more options during end game (and even all thruout the game) then WoW. But, like I said. I'm a WoW n00b >.>

PVP and Instances are available through out the game, not just end game.

Awww congrats on 70 Goero ^^

Anyway to lazy to read all of this...so sum itaru up in 3 words or less

Chad dont get it.

(phil from hercules taught me how to count)


For Chad:

But basically what im trying to say is that time is a major factor in the difficulty of a mob. Think of it this way. AV = EXTREMELY DIFFICULT because not only does AV use 2 hours constantly but it has a TON of hp. And a ton of hp means that it takes you more time to kill it. And durring the time that AV is not dead, it can kill you. The longer that time slot is the more difficult the mob is just because it has a bigger oportunity to damage you. Of course you have to take into account damage the mob does and all that. I guess you missed my previous statement about this, but say you are fighting 2 mobs that do the same damage (say its something crazy like 800 damage a hit) but one has 1000 hp and one has 1000000 hp. Which is less difficult? the one with 1000 hp. Why? because it can be killed faster (<<< Time) Another example would be DoT as opposed to using high damage attacks: A DoT party is harder on the tank and the mages because they have to keep everyone healed for longer, its harder for the tank because he gets hit more because of the ammount of time he is fighting.

But, even that encounter isn't 100% determined by the time you have to spend fighting - its determined by player preparedness, player skill and player gear, as well.

I said that earlier. Notice the part where I compare the samurai.

Here's an example: I sit at work in a cubicle for eight hours every weekday for my job. My job IS NOT difficult by any stretch of the imagination - a lot of data entry, printing maps and drawing lines on the screen. I spend 40 hours per week at work, yet that does not mean its difficult.

According to your deffinition here, every game in the world is as easy as every other game in the world because you sit and click. I would also like to reiterate my statement earlier Whats harder, holding a brick over your head for 5 minutes or an hour?

Ok, so now to Taru's question about how you determine difficulty. Difficulty in 99% of stuff in MMORPGs is based on challenge and the encounter. Using Taru's definition, apparently an Onyxia encounter isn't difficult because it only takes you like 30 minutes to do. However, it is immensely difficult, even moreso than Molten Core, which requires the same amount of people, but takes longer to complete. Yet, in the Onyxia encounter, difficulty is determined by the challenge of the single encounter, not by the time it takes to do the encounter.

Define/answer the following in your own words please without using my definition and without using time:

1. Difficulty
2. Challenge (as used here "Yet, in the Onyxia encounter, difficulty is determined by the challenge of the single encounter")
3. Encounter
4. How Player Ability effects a fight game?
5. How gear effects a fight?
6. If 2 mobs doing the same amount of damage but one has less hp, which is easier?

Remember: without using my definition and without using time

[Chadness]

tarureaper said:

1. Difficulty
2. Challenge (as used here "Yet, in the Onyxia encounter, difficulty is determined by the challenge of the single encounter")
3. Encounter
4. How Player Ability effects a fight game?
5. How gear effects a fight?
6. If 2 mobs doing the same amount of damage but one has less hp, which is easier?

Remember: without using my definition and without using time

Difficulty - the amount of equipment, consumables and player skill that is required to complete an event.

Challenge - similar to difficulty, but the amount that the event tests your skills as a player with your particular job class and your use of available options to do damage, heal your comrades and basically survive.

Encounter - Well, I was using "encounter" to describe the Onyxia instance, which is basically just you zoning in and fighting Onyxia - one single boss inside a very small instance. It could also refer to an entire instance as "one encounter", because instances are pretty well themed. One instance will have the theme of elementals and fire-related mobs - which is termed as one "encounter". Another might be mobs that do a lot of shadow damage, termed as another "encounter".

How Player Ability effects a fight game? - Player ability determines how efficient a group is in bringing down a mob, or a group of mobs, or an instance, or whatever you're fighting. In fact, its the major factor in party or raid efficiency. Note that efficiency rarely refers to doing something faster, it mostly refers to doing something the right way.

How gear effects a fight? - Similar to player ability, actually. Gear is the second most important aspect of any encounter (in WoW at least). First player ability, then gear. Some gear has higher resistances to certain damage types (shadow, fire, frost, nature, arcane, etc.), which allows the wearer of such gear to be more protected from damage of that type. Some gear has higher stamina allowing the wearer to be protected more from any type of attack. It doesn't in any way relate to time, it is just using the right gear for the job. The right gear will rarely move the encounter along any quicker.

If 2 mobs doing the same amount of damage but one has less hp, which is easier? - Honestly, in WoW, its always the hardest mob that comes down first, which would be the one with more HP. Because, we know if we do that, it will be easier on our tanks. They're both the same as far as difficulty because really neither of them is hurting anyone more or less than the other, doesn't matter how long it takes to bring them down.

In a Drakk fight, it takes us longer to bring down two trash mobs that are pulled with him than it takes to actually bring down the boss. Which is easier? The boss? No, he just goes down faster, even though he has more HP and more damaging attacks. HP does not have to have anything to do with time spent in the process of killing.

[Goero]

/em gives up with a sigh

ok have your little argument and ignore my uber lvl 70ness!

ill just go jump off some cliff with pointy rocks at the bottom..

[lizhellsing]

i said gratz on your 70 before goero=p

[Goero]

i saw that ^^ and Thanks again Liz..

(im really just trying to break up one of the redundant arguments about WoW vs. FFXI.. we've already had this arguement ATLEAST twice.. so why are we havin it again? >.>)

[Chadness]

Grats on 70 Goero! Its about time!

[Goero]

took you long enough you n00blet @.@

i delvled twice tonight doin ZM4.. but Reraise gorget ftw!
i beleive im still lvl 70

Gotta check

[tarureaper]

chadness said:

tarureaper said:

1. Difficulty
2. Challenge (as used here "Yet, in the Onyxia encounter, difficulty is determined by the challenge of the single encounter")
3. Encounter
4. How Player Ability effects a fight game?
5. How gear effects a fight?
6. If 2 mobs doing the same amount of damage but one has less hp, which is easier?

Remember: without using my definition and without using time

Difficulty - the amount of equipment, consumables and player skill that is required to complete an event.

Challenge - similar to difficulty, but the amount that the event tests your skills as a player with your particular job class and your use of available options to do damage, heal your comrades and basically survive.

Encounter - Well, I was using "encounter" to describe the Onyxia instance, which is basically just you zoning in and fighting Onyxia - one single boss inside a very small instance. It could also refer to an entire instance as "one encounter", because instances are pretty well themed. One instance will have the theme of elementals and fire-related mobs - which is termed as one "encounter". Another might be mobs that do a lot of shadow damage, termed as another "encounter".

How Player Ability effects a fight game? - Player ability determines how efficient a group is in bringing down a mob, or a group of mobs, or an instance, or whatever you're fighting. In fact, its the major factor in party or raid efficiency. Note that efficiency rarely refers to doing something faster, it mostly refers to doing something the right way.

How gear effects a fight? - Similar to player ability, actually. Gear is the second most important aspect of any encounter (in WoW at least). First player ability, then gear. Some gear has higher resistances to certain damage types (shadow, fire, frost, nature, arcane, etc.), which allows the wearer of such gear to be more protected from damage of that type. Some gear has higher stamina allowing the wearer to be protected more from any type of attack. It doesn't in any way relate to time, it is just using the right gear for the job. The right gear will rarely move the encounter along any quicker.

If 2 mobs doing the same amount of damage but one has less hp, which is easier? - Honestly, in WoW, its always the hardest mob that comes down first, which would be the one with more HP. Because, we know if we do that, it will be easier on our tanks. They're both the same as far as difficulty because really neither of them is hurting anyone more or less than the other, doesn't matter how long it takes to bring them down.

In a Drakk fight, it takes us longer to bring down two trash mobs that are pulled with him than it takes to actually bring down the boss. Which is easier? The boss? No, he just goes down faster, even though he has more HP and more damaging attacks. HP does not have to have anything to do with time spent in the process of killing.

I have a lot to say about this, but I dont have the energy right now. I just worked a 17 hour day and I literally got back to the hotel room right this moment.

P.S. Goero, I dont give a crap what level ya are cuz yur still a n00blet

(j/k gratz.... ok gratz but no j/k, ur still a noob >.>)

[Goero]

I take offense to that you n00blet!!

(oh and im still lvl 70.. i died again when we went to start ZM5.. thank GOD for priestbilly and his RIII ^^! still lvl 70 ^^)

[kana]

Wow all these pages regarding Dynamis and yet none of them bickering over the one true fact about Dynamis.

Until all gear, currency, and the peope chosen to receive 'extra rights' are not just chosen by regular players - well then Dynamis is going to always suck. FFXI is never going to reduce the number of currency or issues to making a relic weapon, and unfortunately this being not Utopia in the real world and FFXI's virtual world being even far more away from Utopia you're never going to have players with other motives. Greed runs dynamises, its prominent in every big LS - and it has always been that way. From the time when NAs were just starting out, to the months that I partook in it and looked around at other LSes to compare which would be ideal, to even now when I'm not there - its all the same. And personally, if a weapon or full relic set can't make a huge noticeable difference when fighting a God, HNM, Boss, whatever - its probably not worth the 15000+ currency, nor the 12 months + to get able to lot on currency or gear or just hoping for that drop.

[cycerath2]

ok... I've ignored this too long, Congrats Goero on lv 70 and 71.

now onto the real problem, Rovec got lv 73 @_@ NOOOO he's gonna catch me in level!!!

here's the situation, I spent lots of time (nearly an 1hr) reading this thread, in some parts it was difficult because I had no idea what chad was talking about, because I have never and will never play WoW. Now I have been playing FFXI for 3 years and still don't have 75 (1.7k tnl lv 74 =^^=) I take my time in this game cause I can, some days I don't know what to do so I just sit and talk to my ls all day and then log. but when you do something in FFXI you feel like you actually accomplished something cause it took along time and not everyone would have done it, where in Wow (from my observation of this conversation) I would feel like taru did, like I didn't accomplish anything. there are fewer people in FFXI the in wow, because only a select few like to take the time to play a time consuming game like FFXI, WoW is for those who want an easier gaming style that can fit into any busy schedule (might be harder in some parts, but IDK!) But in Reality you can in no way compare the games (so stop!).

Dynamis - jeuno, tavnazia, sandoria, windurst, bastok, Valkurian, qufim are all parts to Dynamis, I've only been to sandoria, bastok and jeuno, there are some instances in the FFXI game where the reason people don't show up is not because of exp but because there job doesn't get AF armor in those areas, like BLM is to Sandoria or PLD is to jeuno. ok, taht's all I got to say. thanks for wasting my time, I could have spent an 1hr getting 7k exp in that time
-_-